E6: The Drama Triangle: Why We Step In and How to Get Out

I Hear You
I Hear You
E6: The Drama Triangle: Why We Step In and How to Get Out

Show Notes

Episode Transcript

Forgive typos and odd grammatical mistakes—this was transcribed using the magic of AI, and while it’s insanely awesome, it’s not perfect.

[00:00:00] Welcome back to the I Hear You podcast, I’m your host, Michael Sorensen, and today we’re exploring another foundational concept known as the drama triangle.

[00:00:10] The drama triangle is a social model that essentially explains, or puts names to, different roles people play in drama filled relationships. And once you understand the triangle and these roles, it becomes significantly easier to step out of the drama and navigate these situations with much better skill, confidence and understanding. If you run into drama at work, with friends, with your spouse, your significant other, or any other human, this episode is a worthy listen. Let’s get to it.

Seeing the Matrix

[00:00:59] All right, by raise of virtual hands, how many of you have seen the movie The Matrix?

[00:01:05] Now, if you haven’t, I’m going to spoil the whole movie for you, so if you think you might watch it, then maybe skip this episode, listen to a different one, and come back after you’ve watched that movie.

[00:01:16] I bring that movie up because, if you haven’t seen it, the basic premise here is that the world that we live in is actually just a giant computer program that these robots in the future have designed to harvest – super weird super sci fi-ey, but bear with me, I have a point here. They created this virtual world, and they plug our bodies into this and our brains think we’re living a normal natural world, or living in a normal natural world. And yet it’s actually all just a computer program. Our actual bodies are just sitting in a little pod somewhere, and we’re plugged into this. I won’t bother getting into why they’re doing that. If you do care, you can watch the movie there. The reason I bring it up, though, is that most of the people in The Matrix, is what it’s called, the piece of software, don’t even know that they’re in a computer program. To them, they’re just living life, a normal life, as everybody else lives it. But there is a core group of people who somehow or another have found out the truth.

[00:02:14] They’ve found out that they’re actually not living a real life. They recognize that they’re in a computer program. And by that, with that recognition, they are able to start to manipulate the laws of physics almost, because all they’re really doing is manipulating the code.

[00:02:31] Now, there’s a principal character, the main protagonist, who’s name is Neo. And these people seek him out, because they’ve heard a prophecy that he’s the one that’s going to basically help them overcome the matrix and find their freedom.

[00:02:44] Well, the first episode of this show, this movie, is showing Neo’s journey through all of this. And he’s having a really hard time seeing it for what it actually is. He still thinks these people are crazy half the time because he just sees the life he’s used to living.

[00:02:59] And yet at the very end, there’s the critical moment where he’s in this epic fight scene, but he stops and this guy, you know, this guy shoots a bullet at him and Neo turns around and instead of seeing the guy in the room and all the damage that they’ve caused, he sees the code and he realizes, oh my gosh, this isn’t real. I see the matrix now, I actually see what’s happening. This man, the bullet, my hands, everything that I’m looking at isn’t real, it’s actually just code.

[00:03:31] And in that instant, he’s able to change everything. That’s where that infamous matrix bullet scene comes from, where he just bends over backwards slowly and the bullet goes right past him and then he dodges the next one.  Pretty soon he’s navigating this intense fight scene without even taking a breath, without even breaking a sweat, because suddenly he’s like, oh my gosh, this is so crazy. This is all it really is. It’s really not that complicated, it’s really not that scary.

[00:03:57] Now, why do I bring that movie up and an episode in a whole podcast about relationships?

[00:04:03] Well, what we’re going to talk about today, the drama triangle for me, is kind of like seeing The Matrix, seeing the code. It almost feels like I’m looking at everything that’s going on behind the scenes in life and realizing, oh, that’s really not that scary. Oh, you don’t hate my guts. This is what’s going on with you. Oh, I don’t have to jump into this drama. I don’t have to fight and pull and push and try to rescue people? And it just makes life a whole lot easier. It really feels like that to me, which as nerdy as that sounds, if you don’t get it, I’m sorry, we can move on. But I feel like, as I’ve come to understand the drama triangle and as I’ve come to understand validation and all these other principles that we’re talking about on the podcast, to me, I feel like Neo in that instance, where I walk into a situation and I can just see much clearer, much more clearly what’s actually going on.

[00:04:55] I’m not perfect at it. I don’t think anybody is perfect at it. But that’s why I’m excited about today’s principle, because as you come to understand the drama triangle and as you come to understand what’s really going on in the conflict that you deal with day in and day out, it frees you up to manage it in a much, much more tactful, calm way. And it frees you up to reclaim your own happiness and to go through life, not in fear of what people might do or say, but instead recognizing that you do, in fact have control, at least over your own thoughts and over your own actions. And you can navigate that. It almost feels like you’re cheating at life. So with all of that amazing buildup, I will say this, this isn’t to say that you’re not going to still go through hard things. That’s not going to say it’s going to make every situation easier, because that’s not true. All I’m saying is this makes it a lot easier, doesn’t make life easy, but certainly makes it easier.

The Karpman Drama Triangle

[00:05:51] So let’s dive into the drama triangle. This concept and this name, the drama triangle, was first developed by a man named Dr. Stephen Karpman, in the late 1960s and it identifies and describes three roles that are present whenever there is drama or conflict in a relationship.

[00:06:11] And those three roles are victim, persecutor and rescuer.

[00:06:17] And the interplay between those three roles vividly describes the most common strategies that we use to manage our fear and our anxiety when we’re going head to head with someone.

[00:06:28] So let’s dove into the three key players in the drama triangle.

Role 1: The Persecutor

The first is the persecutor. The persecutor is controlling, blaming, critical, oppressive, angry, authoritative, rigid, superior, self-righteous. All of those things. Any of those things are attributes that somebody playing the persecutor role might exhibit. The persecutor insists this is all your fault.

[00:06:56] Now, persecutors can be people, or they can be conditions such as a health condition or a situation such as a natural disaster. And I’ll explain a little more about that in just a moment. So the first role is persecutor.

Role 2: The Victim

[00:07:10] The second role is victim. Victims often feel powerless and like they’re at the mercy of life’s events or what everybody else is doing to them. They often avoid taking responsibility for their own actions or their own circumstances, and they sincerely feel victimized, oppressed, helpless, ashamed, powerless.

[00:07:31] Somebody in the victim role might feel like they can’t make decisions. They don’t know how to solve problems, or they just go through life feeling like, oh my gosh, my life sucks. It’s that the victim stance is poor me. Now, before I go any further here, let me make one point very clear. The quote unquote, victim in the drama triangle is not a true victim. They are acting or playing a role here. So in today’s episode, we’re not talking about victims of abuse or assault or extortion or what have you. Anyone in those situations must seek help from others. And people in those situations are not who we’re referring to here as the victim in the victim triangle or excuse me, in the drama triangle.

[00:08:13] So again, the victim that we’re talking about here is somebody who truthfully isn’t a victim, and yet they’re taking on that role. They’re acting as though they are a victim.

Role 3: The Rescuer

[00:08:22] The third role in the drama triangle is the rescuer. The rescuer is often quick to jump in and save the day even when others are responsible. This is something that a lot of us fall into. Obviously, it depends on who we’re talking to. But oftentimes we fall into the rescuer role if we dislike conflict, if we don’t like people being upset, if we don’t like contention in the room, we are very pulled to this rescuer role. And the rescuer in the drama triangle kind of feels like if they can fix and save others, then that will make others appreciate and value them for their good deeds. So they’re a classic enabler, and they almost feel guilty sometimes if they don’t rescue. So somebody in the rescuer role will have a really hard time just sitting there if something’s going on. They’ll have a really hard time if somebody’s really dropped the ball or they’re not being responsible in life and they’re starting to suffer the consequences of their actions, a rescuer will feel a very strong pull to try to save them from the consequences of those actions. And yet that rescuing actually has negative effects.

[00:09:35] It keeps the victim dependent and it gives the victim permission to fail. It gives the victim permission to just continue to sit and wallow in their own self-pity. And it also keeps the rescuer stuck in just focusing all of their energy and attention on someone else’s problems instead of solving their own.

[00:09:53] So we spoke in an earlier episode about the importance of taking responsibility for our own happiness, right? Well, this is this is a real difficult thing for somebody who tends to become the rescuer to do, because they’re so focused on helping other people that pretty quickly they say, well, what about me? Helping everyone else, but no one else is helping me. And then they actually shift into a victim role, which we’re going to talk about in a little bit here.

[00:10:20] So those those are the three roles that are being played whenever there is drama, whenever there is dysfunctional conflict in a relationship. Persecutor, victim and rescuer.

How Do We End Up in a Drama Triangle?

[00:10:32] So let’s talk about how drama triangles form now. You have a basic sense, basic idea of what the three roles are. How do we end up in a drama triangle? Well, one thing I do want to point out here again is that, getting involved in a drama triangle is not something somebody does to you. Nobody can pull you in to the drama triangle. Drama gets created and oftentimes we feel pulled in, but that’s just because we’re intrigued by it or again, we’re just defaulting to our default behaviors, whether it’s rescuing or persecuting or being the victim. But we all make the choice to step into this triangle.

[00:11:09] And the other other thing that I think is interesting or important to point out here is that each participant, they get some kind of psychological need met and they feel almost justified in the role when they jump into this triangle. So we’re all acting upon unhealthy roles, rather than acting genuinely responsible or altruistic. But of course, we’re getting something out of that because otherwise we wouldn’t do it. And that’s one of the most interesting dynamics in psychology. I’m not a psychologist, but I’m fascinated by psychology. And at the end of the day, you can explain most people’s actions quite logically. Not always. Right. There are certainly mental disorders, there are certainly a lot of things that play into why certain people do what they do.

[00:11:54] But by and large, if you’re not dealing with a mental disorder, most people are doing whatever they’re doing, because they’re getting benefits from it in some way or another. Even if there are worse things that it’s causing, a lot of these things, especially in conflict, they come from our childhood, they come from learned behaviors that were coping mechanisms.

[00:12:15] You know, if we grew up in a in a very abusive or aggressive family, well, at least one of us in that dynamic probably had to take on the role of rescuer just to get through. And so, oftentimes what we’re gonna talk about here today are things that people have learned from their past. That takes a bit of reprogramming, it takes a bit of unlearning. And it takes, sometimes a therapist, sometimes a really good friend on the outside looking in to help us snap out of our learned behaviors. So let’s see how this plays out.

[00:12:47] The victim usually starts or catalyzes the drama triangle because usually it starts off with somebody feeling victimized, feeling persecuted. And again, we’re talking about feeling and acting, not an actual situation of true abuse or somebody actually attacking or assaulting somebody.

[00:13:06] So when when I feel like I’m a victim, then I seek out a persecutor, I blame somebody else. And again, I mentioned that this could be an actual person where I might say, can you believe that he did that to me? I had every right to stand here and he just bumped into me, that guys such a jerk! You know, I pick somebody to blame, even if they haven’t actively come at me.

[00:13:30] Or it could it could be another thing. So as another example here, if I fail an exam, and I don’t want to take responsibility for not studying, I might blame my professor or I might even blame the exam as being unreasonable or ridiculous or so over the top. And then I’ll seek out reaching support from somebody who I know will enable me. So, I’m the victim in that situation. The professor who doesn’t even know I’m upset is the persecutor that I’m blaming. And then I’m looking for anybody, I’m looking for that third person who’s going to be my rescuer? Who can I go talk to that will go, oh, man, that sucks. I can’t believe that. Yeah, you shouldn’t have to study for more than 10 minutes, or hat’s just stupid! And there’s our triangle. I find that person who will enable me, who will say, you’re right, you’re so hard done to. How could they? And we’re in a nice little triangle of drama there.

[00:14:24] So, again, the victim usually starts it, and then they start looking for a rescuer. The rescuer then steps in oftentimes under the guise of trying to help. But there is often a mixed motive there, because most of the time they don’t either know how to help properly and or they’re just trying to make the conflict go away. They’re just trying to, quote unquote, make the victim feel better. And so most often, they will enable the victim. So, again, my hypothetical friend in this instance saying, oh, yeah, that’s horrible. You really shouldn’t have to study that much. Well, is that true? Is it really his place to say, I shouldn’t have to study more than 10 minutes? I signed up for the class, I knew what was expected. He’s actually hurting me by rescuing me.

[00:15:12] He’s hurting me by saying, oh, yes, you poor thing. That’s so hard, because what happens the next time an exam comes around? Well, I’m still in my own drama. I’m still in my own victim mindset where I feel like I shouldn’t have to study. And maybe I go into that next exam and I fail that one too. And then I go back and I complain to that same friend and I blame my professor. Well, if I keep doing that throughout my whole college career, I’m not graduating. And I’m not getting a job, and I’m not learning personal responsibility and so on and so forth. It is a snowball effect there when we live out our lives in drama and when people around us live out their lives in drama. Because suddenly we have nobody who can help us see truth. We don’t have people who are willing to call us out and invite us to step out of that victim mindset.

What Role Do You Usually Play?

[00:16:02] So, a pause here for a second and ask you a question, what role do you usually play?

[00:16:09] Whenever there’s conflict, whenever you run into something, what do you typically do? Are you the person? Be honest with yourself, are you the person that sits back and victim and says, oh, poor me and you blame everyone?

[00:16:22] Or are you the person that jumps in and rescues people and says, oh, it’s OK, oh, don’t worry about it, oh it’ll be fine. And you would much rather just agree with whatever they’re saying, even if you disagree, you’d much rather go along with it just to try to make them feel better.

[00:16:37] Or are you the persecutor? Do you have a tendency to blame people outright? Say this is all your fault? Or to accuse them of things when it might not be their fault. But when you get angry, when you get upset, do you get defensive and start throwing accusations back at the other person?

[00:16:52] According to Lynn Forest, motivational speaker and former social worker who has conducted workshops about the Karpman Triangle for 30 years, participants tend to have a primary role between the victim, rescuer, or persecutor that they adopt, that they kind of slide into when they step into these dramatic situations. So, my question for you is, what is that for you? Who do you play? What role do you act out? Because that’s important to be aware of.

[00:17:24] Now, we often shift between all three, and it can happen in one conversation and one argument, which is what’s kind of crazy about this and it takes a little bit of practice.

[00:17:34] The victim, for example, they might fight back, they might retaliate and try to punish the persecutor, who then in turn feels like the victim, then they’re saying, whoa, come on, why are you coming after me? I was just sitting here!

[00:17:47] The rescuer might be attacked by trying to help the victim. You know, the persecutor might suddenly lash out at the rescuer and say, what are you doing? Don’t don’t do that. She’s a total idiot and can you believe that she did that? And suddenly, the rescuer starts to feel like a victim.

[00:18:03] Or, I’ve seen this happen many times, the rescuer is watching this dynamic back and forth and he or she is trying to do their best to help, and they’re not feeling appreciated. Come on, guys, I’m trying to help, back forth, back forth. And then they’ll sometimes seek out a different rescuer for them. Now they’re feeling like a victim when they go and they talk to their friend and say, I’m just trying to help them. Can you believe it? And they don’t appreciate me, they don’t appreciate everything that I’m trying to do for them! Can you believe that? And guess what? That starts up an overlapping drama triangle.

[00:18:32] Now, the rescuer in one triangle is feeling like a victim and they’re finding a different rescuer. It just gets messy. But can you see it? Can you look back and think of certain situations or examples where you’ve seen that drama, where you’ve seen it get messy like that? And if so, can you start to identify who was playing what role?

Real-World Examples

The Last-Minute Work Project

[00:18:55] I’ll give you a couple of real world examples. The first, let’s say that your team at work is working hard to hit a deadline and perhaps you ask a team member if they’d be willing to stay late. You make it clear that they have a choice and that if they can’t or don’t want to, you can find someone else. They agree to stay, but you later find out they’re complaining to their coworker about the last minute project and how they quote unquote, always have to deal with stuff like this.

[00:19:21] Then, their coworker indulges them in the drama saying, I can’t believe he asked you to stay late again. That’s ridiculous.

[00:19:28] Right here. Can you see the roles? Who is the victim? Who is the persecutor? And who is the rescuer?

[00:19:37] Well, the person you asked to stay late is acting like the victim. Again, I use acting here because he’s not a victim. You gave him the choice and he chose to stay. So he’s not a victim anymore. But he’s wearing that badge, he’s playing that role.

[00:19:53] The coworker obviously is the rescuer who he turns to and says, can you believe this? Oh, poor me. And who’s the persecutor? Well, it’s you, because you are the mean old boss that asked him to stay late.

The Emotionally Abusive Parent

[00:20:06] Let’s look at a second example here. And this is from my real life, or at least my my social circle.

[00:20:12] A close friend of mine grew up in a very emotionally dysfunctional family. Her mom was a classic narcissist, always right, pretending everything was perfect and quick to criticize anyone who told her otherwise. My friend’s older siblings, in an effort to stick up for themselves, would push back on their mom and transept boundaries, but they would get lambasted and emotionally abused every time they fought back, every time they stood up for themselves.

[00:20:40] My friend, in an attempt to help her mom cool down and her siblings not get hurt, would walk the delicate line of backing up her mother while also trying to help her siblings, quote unquote, understand how to not make mom mad.

[00:20:55] This coping slash safety mechanism allowed my friend to stay on her mom’s good side for most of her growing up years. But it also enabled her mother to continue doing what she was doing and made it very difficult for my friend to see that her older siblings boundaries were actually healthy and that they were a critical part of self-care.

[00:21:12] And so then, of course, like most of us do, she carried that same pattern of rescuing into the rest of her relationship, into the rest of her life, other relationships. Avoiding conflict by enabling others and even leading her to slip into her own victim role periodically because again, she was trying to help everyone else but nobody was trying to help her. And so periodically she would go from being the rescuer back into the victim and saying, what the heck? I don’t get it. I’m the nice one. I’m the good person. Why don’t people appreciate me more?

[00:21:44] Now, again, this conversation is far more complex than we have time to get into here. My friend and her sibling were the true victims of emotional abuse. Again, to what we spoke to earlier, that is real victimhood. I don’t know if that’s the right word, but they were victims of emotional abuse as they were growing up. In the drama triangle there, though, their mom was playing the role of victim. Again, playing, she was making the children, who were sticking up for themselves look like the persecutors.

[00:22:15] She was blaming them. How how how could you, how could you say that about me? How could you do that to me? You’re horrible. And my friend, of course, was the one who stepped in as the rescuer. So, the mom, the emotionally abusive mom was the victim, quote unquote, her siblings were the persecutors, as odd as that sounds, little kids persecuting their mother. And then my friend steps in as the rescuer.

[00:22:42] Do you see how dysfunctional this all is? It’s crazy making. And it’s one of the many ways emotionally abusive individuals manipulate and control. This is why I recommend therapy to just about everybody, because this stuff is tough to recognize when we’re in the heat of the moment, especially for children in a relationship like that. But really, we all do it.

[00:23:04] I mean, maybe that’s too broad or sweeping of a statement to say we all but most people in this world fall into these patterns. And even if we’re not trying to be emotionally abusive, even if we’re not trying to outright harm other people, it’s very much a learned behavior, a learned pattern that at least to a certain degree, our society perpetuates. Our society teaches us. Because, oftentimes we’re taught that the, quote unquote, good thing or nice thing is to not make anybody angry. The media, whether it’s social media or television shows or movies or the news or politics, encourage us to feel entitled.

[00:23:42] They encourage us to act like victims. You shouldn’t have to work that hard. Take from these people who have a lot of money and you should have it. It’s not fair. Right. And maybe I’m walking into a minefield here, talking about income inequality and whatnot. My intent not to go there, but I hear these messages all the time throughout the world, encouraging people to be victims or to be rescuers or to be persecutors.

How Do You Get Out of Drama?

[00:24:06] So I say all of this to say that it is normal, but just because it’s normal doesn’t mean that it’s healthy. And just because it’s normal doesn’t mean that it’s okay. So, that’s why we’re talking about this today, because if we can start to understand the reality, and understand how unhealthy and crazy that reality often is, that’s when we can start to change.

[00:24:29] So speaking of change, how do you get out of the triangle?

1. Recognize the Roles

[00:24:33] Well, first and foremost, you have to recognize that you’re in drama and ideally recognize who is playing what role, which includes yourself, right?

[00:24:41] If you’re in drama, that means that you’ve stepped into a role, likely the one that you’re most comfortable in, and you are fueling that fire there. So the first step is to recognize it.

2. Change Your Approach

[00:24:52] The second step is to change your approach. Now, this, I think is interesting. So I think it was in 1990, an educator by the name of a/c Troy developed a healthier alternative, if you will, to the drama triangle. It’s basically the antithesis to that. And she calls it the winning triangle. Now, what I really like about this and perhaps I’ll throw a diagram up on my Website from the show notes, is that she maps each of the three drama triangle roles to new roles that are healthier ways of managing that conflict.

[00:25:27] So instead of being a persecutor, which is, I’m right. Be assertive, which is, I have needs. So if you are stepping out of a persecutor role and into an assertive role, you ask for what you want. You say no to what you don’t want. You give constructive feedback. You negotiate. You take positive action to try to change what it is that you don’t like or to try to get what it is that you want. So, again, being assertive is the replacement to being a persecutor.

[00:25:57] Instead of being a victim, which again is, I’m blameless or poor me, get vulnerable. In other words, I’m struggling. So, this looks like, confiding in healthy friends or family or seeing a therapist. It means taking responsibility for a problem and asking for help. Right, it’s totally fine to be vulnerable. It’s totally fine to not know how to do certain things or to feel incapable. Where it crosses into victim, is where we go, well, I feel incapable, I don’t know how to handle this, I’m just going to throw my hands up in the air and and expect somebody else to fix it for me. That crossed into victim. But if you can hold that and just go talk to a friend and say, I’m super upset right now. I’ve spent all this time on this project and I really don’t know how to make it look any better, I just can’t figure it out, Can you help me? Or, do you know of any other resources? Or again, you go to a therapist, if you’re not happy in your relationship and instead of saying, my spouse is horrible, can you change them? You say, I’m not happy in my relationship, what can I do?

[00:27:02] And then the third is, instead of being a rescuer, which again, that’s, I’m good, I’m helping, focus on caring. Which might look more like, I’m listening. In other words, caring versus rescue a relationship is, showing the other person respect by validating their emotions instead of jumping in with a fix and then finding ways to help them without enabling them.

[00:27:25] We could spend and probably will spend an entire episode talking about how to help without enabling, because it can be difficult for us to walk that line, especially if we’re in the habit of always rescuing people, always enabling them.

[00:27:37] But, a very caring approach is to still listen, so, I’m not saying that if somebody comes to you and they’re a victim, that you just say, oh, this is drama, I’m out, see ya! Which, you could do. But if you want to help that person, if you care about them, there are ways to do that without enabling them. There are ways to do that without fueling this drama triangle.

[00:27:57] So again, the roles of drama triangle are persecutor, victim, rescuer. But the healthier alternatives to those roles are assertive, vulnerable and caring.

So Easy, Right?

[00:28:08] Now, of course, I say all this like, oh, well, if you’re just a victim, then just get vulnerable. If you’re just a rescuer, then just shift to caring. I say it all like it’s easy, and I recognize that it’s not. Everyone’s going to be in a different situation, everyone’s going to have different family dynamics. My aim in this episode and really in this podcast series is to simply put forth the truth, put forth resources, hopefully provide a few A-ha moments or insights.

[00:28:33] And then if you’re struggling with it, or if you want more information, if you have questions or if there are certain things you’re thinking, I don’t get that Michael, that doesn’t make sense, hop on the Internet. Find other trusted resources.

[00:28:44] Again, I will include links and resources in the show notes to try to provide some jumping off points. But if you can just walk away from this episode thinking about, OK, drama. Get back to the Matrix. Drama is not the way life is supposed to be. Life does not need to be dramatic like this. There is a higher path. There is a healthier way.

[00:29:05] And hopefully some of things that we’ve talked about thus far at least give you a direction. Something to look at, something to study deeper, something to talk with your therapist about. Because I can tell you, while I am far from perfect and I know I never will be, this is life changing. It really is so freeing.

[00:29:23] It’s funny, frankly, when a friend or somebody is telling me about a story at work or whatever and they’re explaining all the drama that’s going down. I just sit back and I’m like, are you kidding me? Do they really not see it? They’re acting like high schoolers, they’re acting like elementary school kids. And I don’t say that in a judgmental way, but, when you start to see it for what it is, it really is quite comical, at least when that’s a bump among adults.

[00:29:51] It’s quite tragic and heartbreaking when children are involved, or when it’s adults to children like we’ve talked about. But again, bringing that awareness to it is critical.

Do You See It?

[00:30:01] And so that’s how I want to wrap up today’s episode is with that invitation. The next time you run into drama, see if you can identify the roles. See if you can catch it. Bring awareness to that situation, and then see if you can gently steer the conversation out of the drama triangle and into a winning triangle.

[00:30:19] There’s so much more to cover on this topic, but I’m gonna wrap it up here. We will dive into related topics such as boundaries, codependency, communication, manipulation and all of that so much more in future episodes.

[00:30:31] But today, we’re going to count it good enough out of respect for your time to just have an introduction to the drama triangle. So, as always, if you’re finding value in the show, I ask that you consider leaving a review on your podcast platform of choice, i-Tunes Stitcher Google Play. Doing so will help others find the show, and plays a small but essential role in helping others live healthier, happier, more connected lives.

[00:30:55] So with that, we’ll wrap it up and I will talk to you next week.

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